Hearings to examine the nominations of Anthony Tata, of Florida, to be Under Secretary for Personnel and Readiness, and Katherine Sutton, of Illinois, to be an Assistant Secretary, both of the Department of Defense.
Armed Services Committee
2025-05-06
Participants
Transcript
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Mike Rounds
members as we drafted legislation that codified cyber effects operations as a traditional military activity. implemented dozens of Cyber Solarium Commission recommendations, provided CyberCom critical budget and service-like authorities, and established the principal cyber advisor positions for the services. I urge you to support this supremely qualified nominee to be the next Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Roger F. Wicker
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Markwayne Mullin
Chairman Wicker, Ranking Member Reid, and colleagues on the Senate Armed Services Committee, I miss a lot of you who I served with for eight great years on this committee. It's good to be back. It's an honor to introduce Tony Tata, President Trump's nominee for Undersecretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness. Retired Army Brigadier General Tony Tata has had a strong and distinguished record of public service. His 28-year career in the Army included commanding 800 paratroopers in the 82nd Airborne of Fort Bragg. 4,000 air assault troops in the 101st Airborne, and thousands of service members in the 10th Mountain Division Joint Task Force 76 in Afghanistan. Following his military service, Tony made a quick transition to civilian leadership when he was named chief operating officer of DC Public Schools in 2009, arguably one of the most political positions you could have. A year later, he returned to North Carolina to serve as the superintendent of Wake Public School System, the largest public school system in the state, another highly political position. Establishing himself as an effective manager in both military and civilian worlds, Tony was appointed by Governor McCrory, my friend, in 2013 to serve as North Carolina's Secretary of Transportation and lead its 12,000-person workforce. That's the same time when I was North Carolina Speaker of the House, and I saw firsthand how he dedicated himself to working with legislators and business leaders to modernize our state's infrastructure and pass what seemed at the time controversial policies that put North Carolina's infrastructure on the right track. Tony's prior experience as senior Pentagon leader equips him to provide the steady leadership and strategic insight to advance the administration's defense priorities and initiatives. His proven track record of managing complex organizations will be invaluable to ensuring our military's readiness. Tony also brings unique experience as a leader of two of the largest public school systems in the country, experience that many military families will greatly appreciate.
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Markwayne Mullin
And as someone who sat on the personnel and readiness subcommittee for eight years, it's insight that we need desperately. I suspect some of you will have tough questions about Tony's past comments. The thing I've learned about Tony is that he takes responsibility for his words and actions. He learns from his past mistakes, which is a testament of a good leader, and I think you'll see that on display today. During his most recent service at the Pentagon, he showed a commitment to professionalism and impartiality, earning respect of his peers and colleagues. With global challenges on the rise, particularly from adversaries like China and Russia, Tony's strategic insight and operational experience will be crucial in shaping personnel policies that enhance our military's readiness and competitiveness. Chairman Wicker, Ranking Member Reid, friends and colleagues on the Senate Armed Services Committee, confirming Tony Tata means equipping our Pentagon with the leader who will prioritize readiness, support military families, and advance America's security. He has my full support for his confirmation, and I look forward to the opportunity to confirm him on the floor. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Roger F. Wicker
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Markwayne Mullin
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Roger F. Wicker
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Dan Sullivan
Thank you very much. Ranking member read and before Senator Tillis leaves. I just want to let him know how much we miss him on this committee. So we'd welcome you back anytime. Show of hands. We really love this guy. Well, I'm going to echo what Senator Tillis mentioned about General Tata, and I'm going to emphasize a few other Elements and it's this When you look at his distinguished record of service, it is rare that somebody covers so many different Areas of service in America. It's military command. As Senator Tillis mentioned, literally at all echelons of command up to one star general, including many combat tours. It's senior Pentagon policy making. It's state government administration. Department of Transportation's are some of the most important areas of responsibility in our states. It's public education. And innovation and its private sector advisory roles. And from my perspective, colleagues, this epitomizes the breadth of experience required to oversee the department's Most important resource. And that, of course, is its people. The Department of Defense is most important resource. Is his people and that's what the Under Secretary of Defense for personnel and readiness. Will be focused on and that is what General Tata has the most experience in. I want to mention also that his civilian leadership shows a pattern of success. As Senator Tillis mentioned, whether it's leading the Wake County public school system, Senator Tillis didn't mention that's the nation's 15th largest school system in the country, where he saw firsthand challenges.
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Dan Sullivan
in opportunities facing our military recruiters, which is a giant responsibility that he will have as Under Secretary. And as I also mentioned, North Carolina's Secretary of Transportation, where he served as a leader on a very large, very important, complex organization. So in some colleagues. It's clear to me. General Tata's comprehensive and military policy and civilian experience and his unwavering commitment to service members and their families, which again is going to be his primary responsibility as Under Secretary for Personnel. And readiness makes him an exceptionally qualified. Candidate and nominee to advance the Department of Defense's personnel readiness, retention and recruiting objectives, and I respectfully. Ask all of my colleagues. to support his confirmation. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Roger F. Wicker
Thank you so much, Senator Sullivan, and we now proceed to opening statements. So once again, welcome to our guests and to our fellow citizens who are here for this hearing. Thank you for the families and friends of the witnesses for being here this morning. The United States is up against the most dangerous threat environment we have faced since World War II. I say that at almost every hearing we have because it bears repeating, and it's true, and I'm not sure that Americans realize this or, frankly, that everyone in this town understands this. In these challenging times, I'm grateful that these two individuals and others have stepped up. Mr. Tony Tata has been nominated to serve as Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness. If confirmed, he would assume a critical role. He would oversee total force management, including policies governing personnel readiness, health affairs, training, and quality of life. His nomination comes, as I say, at this pivotal time. The department is working to refocus on warfighting and readiness following years of misplaced emphasis on diversity, equity, and inclusion. Mr. Tata is a decorated combat veteran, as we've already heard, and a retired brigadier general. He'll bring a warfighter's perspective to this position. I'm interested to learn how he plans to build on recent recruitment and retention successes. how he helps to ensure high readiness standards grounded in operational realities, and how he will work to enhance quality of life for service members and their families, particularly in health care and family support. Ms. Sutton has been nominated to be Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy. Ms.
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Roger F. Wicker
Sutton has over two decades of experience in cyber policy, technology development, and legislative oversight. Her experience in this domain has been helpful to this committee especially during her tenure as professional staff member for the late Chairman Jim Inhofe. If confirmed, Ms Sutton will be only the second individual ever to hold this position. which was formally created formally in March 2024 as directed by the fiscal year 2023 National Defense Authorization Act. Though the role is new, it's very important. Ms. Sutton would be the senior official responsible for cyber operation policies. If confirmed, she would be responsible for ensuring our cyber forces have what they need to stay ahead of threats such as Volt Typhoon, A series of Chinese cyber activities that create opportunities for future attacks on America's critical infrastructure. Our nation needs the cyber mission force to be ready, trained and equipped with state of the art tools developed, used advanced technologies such as artificial intelligence. I look forward to hearing her views on deterrence in cyberspace, how to bring technology to our cyber operators at a more rapid pace, and what additional resources and authorities she will need to build the capabilities needed. And so thank you both for being here, and I turn to my friend and ranking member, Senator Reid.
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John (Jack) F. Reed
Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and Mr. Tata, Ms. Sutton, welcome to you and to your families. I'd also like to thank Senator Tillis, Senator Rounds, and Senator Sullivan for their introductions. Thank you. Mr. Tanner, you have been nominated to be the Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness. If confirmed, you would be responsible for all personnel matters in the Department of Defense, including military family and childcare programs, family and financial readiness, the DoD school system, and working with the military services to ensure the health and welfare of the force. Mr. Tatter, you were nominated five years ago for a position of similar importance in the Department of Defense. However, the committee considered your nomination carefully and on a bipartisan basis declined to even bring your nomination to a vote in the committee. President Trump ultimately withdrew your nomination. And I fail to understand why you would now be qualified to oversee millions of service members and their families as the Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness. As I told Secretary Hexteth and Mr. Lohmeyer at their nomination hearings, I respect and appreciate your military service, but your record of public statements and behavior towards individuals with whom you disagree politically is, I believe, disqualifying for a position of this significance. Mr. Tatter, your history of controversial and divisive statements is well documented. Prior to your last nomination, you publicly called President Obama, the Commander in Chief, quote, a terrorist leader, and said that then CIA Director John Brennan deserved to be executed. More recently, you Claim that there are, quote, mutinous discussions within military ranks to sabotage President Trump, and you call for a complete purge of Pentagon leadership, including firing all forced general officers and senior career civilian employees. This gives me concern that you have a misguided, biased view of the military and civilian workforces you would oversee.
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John (Jack) F. Reed
Our service members and their families and the civilian employees who support them come from all backgrounds and political persuasions. They come from every state and territory in the Union. If confirmed, you would need to serve all members of the Department of Defense and their families. Not just those who you agree with politically. Your public record and past performance in the Pentagon do not inspire confidence in this regard. I would ask that you explain why service members and civilians who do not share your political opinions can trust that they will not be targeted under your tenure. Similarly, after being pressured by Elon Musk and the so-called Department of Government Efficiency, Secretary Hegsteth recently announced a plan to fire 8% of the entire defense workforce, as many as 75,000 workers across the country. Mr. Tatter, it's confirmed you will be responsible for managing the fallout from these personnel cuts. At a time when we face unprecedented threats from China, Russia, and other adversaries, you will need to find a way to balance these reductions while also ensuring the Department has the resources it needs to adequately support service members and their families. I hope you can explain to this committee how you intend to resolve these contradictory demands while ensuring the Department of Defense accomplishes its mission. Ms. Sutton, I welcome your nomination to be Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy. If confirmed, you would be the second individual to hold this position as it was created in the fiscal year 2023 National Defense Authorization Act. You are well qualified for the role, given your extensive experience with U.S. Cyber Command, as a professional staff member of this committee, and as an engineer at Sandia National Laboratories. When the committee created the ASD for cyber policy, we intended for this position to provide service secretary-like functions for U.S. Cyber Command, mirroring the current relationship that exists between Special Operations Command and the ASD for Special Operations and Low Intensity Conflict.
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John (Jack) F. Reed
If confirmed, it will be important for your office to not only support CyberCom's growth, but also to maintain strong civilian control and oversight of the command. I would like to know how you plan to work with CyberCom and the Department of Defense broadly to better support the cyber workforce and improve cyber acquisition functions, including your objectives following completion of the ongoing CyberCom 2.0 review. I would note that I'm extremely concerned by President Trump's recent dismissal of General Timothy Hawke, who served as the commander of cybercom and director of the National Security Agency. The administration has given no explanation for his firing, but press reports indicate that Laura Loomer, a fringe conspiracy theorist, convinced the president to dismiss General Hawke and fire a slew of expert staff on the National Security Council for no discernible reasons. The administration has not selected a new cyber comm commander and it's unclear if there's any sense of urgency to fill this position. Ms. Sutton, if confirmed, you will need to be a strong partner for the new cyber comm commander whomever they may be, and assist with improving their authorities within the department. And I would like to know how you plan to address these challenges. Thank you again to our nominees, and I look forward to your testimonies. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
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Roger F. Wicker
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Thank you, Chairman Wicker ranking member read distinguished members of the committee. It's an honor and privilege. To appear before you as the president's nominee for under secretary defense for personnel and readiness. I want to thank the president and secretary for this opportunity and for the confidence. And me. I am grateful for the time. Many of you have spent with me in recent weeks and thankful for the committee's attention to my nomination. And I want to thank Senator Tillis and Senator Sullivan for their kind introductions. I'm privileged to have in attendance a large group consisting of my wife, Laura, my daughter, Dr. Brooke Tata, a proud civil servant with the Veterans Administration, her husband, former Marine, there may not be such a thing, and Army National Guardsman, Sergeant Peter Dominicis, my Naval Academy graduate brother, Bob Tata, and his wife, Virginia State Delegate Anne Farrell Tata, who is a Navy wife and mom. My niece, Peyton Tata Takas, and her husband, Commander Rafe Takas, and Tinsley, their daughter. And Rafe is an active duty E2D Hawkeye pilot. My niece, Riley Tata, and her husband, Albert. My sister, Kendall, a Virginia schoolteacher of over 40 years. My mother-in-law, Helen Fahey, a former US attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia for eight years. My father-in-law, Kevin Fahey, my brother-in-law and his wife, Jonathan Fahey, and their son, Garrett. And my son, Zachary, and his eighth-month pregnant wife, Lindsey, and my granddaughter, Allie Kate, are all watching from home. Chairman in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, but represented here by Jamie Jones and McGee. And a host of West Point classmates, other family and friends from across the country. It was my late father and mother, both career school teachers, who instilled in me and my siblings a desire, even an obligation,
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
to live a life of public service and to do so with honor and integrity. My father served 15 terms in the Virginia House of Delegates, where he worked in bipartisan fashion to advance the best interests of his district in the Old Dominion. If confirmed, I will work in the same spirit of a relationship building in bipartisanship. My own life as a public servant began with a 28 year military career, including commands in the 82nd Airborne Division, where two hour recall and 18 hours to wheels up where the readiness standard. 101st Airborne Division, where in my formation were over 80 helicopters and 4,000 air assault troops in the 10th Mountain Division, followed by four years as an education leader here in Washington, D.C., working for Michelle Rhee, and then in Raleigh, North Carolina, and then as Secretary of Transportation for North Carolina. Having participated as a soldier in planning and executing training, operations, exercises, and or combat in the Republic of Korea, the Philippines, Haiti, Panama, Bosnia, Croatia, Hungary, Kosovo, North Macedonia, Iraq, and Afghanistan, My experience has well prepared me for continued service to our nation. Having commanded and led organizations, both military and civilian, consisting of 35 men to 25,000 personnel, I understand the personnel and readiness requirements to defend our nation. Having served in a governor's cabinet and as a superintendent of the 16th largest school system in the nation, I understand and respect the roles and responsibilities of executive branches and legislative bodies. As a leader across a vast array of critical government agencies and private businesses for the last 44 years, I have participated in some fashion in the development, integration, and implementation
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
of policies around recruiting, retention, and transition to civilian life, military health on and off the battlefield, K through 12 education, unit readiness reporting, personnel and equipment readiness, family readiness, training standards, safety standards, particularly with respect to blasts and aviation. If confirmed, my initial goals will be to focus on these areas with an eye on aligning personnel policy with national security imperatives while increasing lethality and the warrior ethos. I will continue to listen, learn and lead as I build a team that allows me to make the best recommendations to the secretary and the president. And I will always, as I've demonstrated over my decades of service, make my highest priority The health and welfare of our brave men and women in uniform in our DOD civilians and contract force. I am grateful for your consideration of my nomination, and I look forward to answering your questions. Thank you.
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Roger F. Wicker
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
Chairman Wicker, Ranking Member Reid, and distinguished members of this committee, good morning. I want to thank President Trump for nominating me for this position, and Secretary Hexeth and Deputy Secretary Feinberg for their support. I am honored to be here today. Thank you also, Senator Rounds, for your kind introduction, and my sincere thanks to the committee members for taking the time to meet with me this week in preparation for this hearing. I am deeply humbled to be nominated as the second Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy. President Trump's strategy of peace through strength requires a cyber force capable of defending the homeland, deterring China, and strengthening burden sharing with our allies and partners. For more than two decades, I've been focused on safeguarding our networks, protecting our information and data, and defending our nation. Before I proceed, I would like to take a moment to recognize my family who is with me here today. My in-laws, Steve and Betsy Mills, traveled from St. Louis to be here and have always welcomed me as part of their family. My parents, Steve and Stephanie Sutton, are also here and have been my greatest supporters. I'm grateful for their unwavering love and their profound influence in shaping who I have become today. My husband, Rob Mills, who has been my steadfast partner through all of life's adventures, is also here by my side. Rob is a hardware engineer who has spent his career also supporting national security programs and working to make our country more secure. I would not be where I am today without his constant support and partnership. And thank you to all of my friends and family watching virtually this morning. I'm grateful for all of your support. While I began my career as an electrical engineer at Sandia National Labs, it was my parents, small business owners of a small cybersecurity company, who inspired my passion for technology and instilled in me a sense of dedication, commitment, and service, and also the importance of secure computing and a strong password.
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
Over the last 20 years, I have held a variety of technical and leadership roles across high impact national security programs in nuclear weapons, space, and cyber that have prepared me well to execute the responsibilities of the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy. I have successfully delivered programs, led multidisciplinary teams, and advised on key research and development programs. Through these roles, I have developed a strong foundation and honed my abilities to manage complex government programs, engage stakeholders, and integrate strategic planning with technical innovation. The cyber domain is complex and fast developing, requiring us to stay ahead of our adversaries, especially when faced with the threats posed by nations like China. China's growing cyber capabilities and its ongoing attempts to target our infrastructure underscore the critical importance of bolstering our own cyber capabilities. Although the United States has made significant strides in cybersecurity, we must act with urgency to accelerate the development and integration of new technologies like AI that will ensure our continued cyber superiority. Throughout my career, I've consistently prioritized the support of our war fighters, ensuring they have the technologies and the resources needed to accomplish their missions. From my early work on critical nuclear weapons and satellite systems at Sandia, to the policy and legislation I shaped and championed as a professional staff member in both the House Armed Services Committee and this committee, and most recently as the Chief Technology Advisor at U.S. Cyber Command, I've been committed to providing our military with the best tools available. I believe the key to success in the cyber domain is a combination of talent, technology, and agility. A lesson I learned throughout my professional career is that our talented civilians and uniformed service members that have the right training and tools are able to accomplish great things.
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
Secretary Hexseth has made it clear that the Department of Defense must act with confidence and decisive action to reestablish deterrence and defend our homeland. I have taken that guidance to heart and have confirmed we'll work across the department to eliminate barriers and accelerate opportunities in cyberspace. As technology continues to evolve, we must remain agile and adapt to the changing environment. Our cyber forces must be well-trained, ready, and equipped to excel in this dynamic landscape. In closing, if confirmed, I look forward to working with Congress and this committee to ensure the department remains supported and resourced to execute our strategies in cyberspace, deter our adversaries, and defend the homeland. I look forward to your questions.
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Roger F. Wicker
Thank you very much, Ms. Sutton, and thank you both. Now we'll move to standard questions, which are required of all civilian nominees. I ask that you keep your microphones on and answer either yes or no as I ask the questions. First, have you adhered to applicable laws and regulations governing conflicts of interest?
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Roger F. Wicker
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
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Roger F. Wicker
Exercising our legislative and oversight responsibilities makes it important that this committee, its subcommittees, and other appropriate committees of Congress receive testimony, briefings, reports, records, and other information from the executive branch on a timely basis. Do you agree, if confirmed, to appear and testify before this committee when requested? I do, Chairman.
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
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Roger F. Wicker
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
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Roger F. Wicker
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
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Roger F. Wicker
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
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Roger F. Wicker
Okay, now we have completed the required questions, and now we will move to a series of questions, and each senator will be allotted five minutes. Mr. Tata, let's talk about recruiting qualified candidates for the military. Nearly one quarter of soldiers recruited in 2022 failed to complete their initial contracts. These were supposedly qualified, they came into the service and did not complete their contract. There is a program in the Army known as Future Soldier Preparatory Course, FSPC, to help prepare people that are not qualified to come in and participate. The data shows that fully one quarter of FSPC attendees don't make it the whole 24 months of service. They failed to complete their requirement. And that's compared to 17.5% of recruits that do attend. So this is of questionable success so far, shall we say. How are we going to mitigate this? Is it true that to your knowledge, we're doing a little better right now, but how can you answer the real concerns about the overall quality of recruits entering the service as well as their ability to meet their contract?
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Chairman, thank you for that question. Right now, recruiting and retention are surging. And so I would like to lay that out. But to your point, we have one in four military age men and women that are even eligible to join the service because of medical disqualification or or other types of disqualifications. And so to ameliorate that system or that issue and to better get after and recruit young men and women, I think we need better access to high schools and I think we need other programs like the one that you're talking about that can help onboard and train and get the ethos, the warrior ethos, the ethos of service penetrating down to the high school level. I saw this as a school leader of 24 high schools in Raleigh, North Carolina, bringing in JROTC, which I know is not a recruiting tool, but also using other programs to help recruiters access high schools. I think it's one of the key elements.
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Roger F. Wicker
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Roger F. Wicker
We may ask you to expand on that on the record, but let me say that this committee in recent NDAAs has required the department to have more Units of junior ROTC at high schools across the country and we we mean for that to be to be followed now miss Sutton How do we rank? How do you think we stack up? Against the axis of aggressors that we face in terms of cyber superiority
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
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Roger F. Wicker
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
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Roger F. Wicker
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
China has grown immensely in size and is aggressively looking at adoption of technologies like artificial intelligence to scale their capabilities. However, the United States has taken a lead, and we still maintain some of the best technical talent in the world that are developing these technologies and the talent within our workforce to rapidly adopt that. If confirmed, I look forward to making sure that we have all the right policies in place and resources so that we can continue this path of maintaining our superiority.
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Roger F. Wicker
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John (Jack) F. Reed
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for your presence here today. Ms. Tata, following President Trump's election, you call for a purge of Pentagon leadership, including firing all four-star general officers and senior career civilian employees. These are traditionally political positions, and you seem to take a very political approach. In fact, significant firings did take place. The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the lawyers in the departments of the Navy, Air Force, and Army, the inspector general was fired. In fact, it's very disturbing because If you want to disregard the law, the first thing you do is get rid of the people who enforce the law and advise you on the law. These firings, which you were prompted to encourage, have they caused us distrust and turmoil within the department?
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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John (Jack) F. Reed
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Ranking member, thank you for the opportunity to have this conversation. Those remarks that I made were in direct response to a CNN report, credible report, that discussed several admirals and generals talking about how to resist President Trump and his civilian leadership. So I was actually talking about defending the Constitution. The admirals and generals don't get to choose which laws that they, lawful orders that they follow. The admirals and generals work for the civilian leadership, and that civilian leadership is codified in Article 2 of our Constitution. And so I found it disturbing, to say the least, that we had admirals and generals reported by CNN discussing resisting the president, resisting the president's vision and directives, lawful orders. And I also found it disturbing that the chairman and the chiefs did not come out and say that this is unacceptable. This is not happening. We're going to have a review to find out if this CNN report is accurate because we cannot have admirals and generals usurping the authority of the civilian leadership and certainly the President of the United States.
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John (Jack) F. Reed
Mr. Tata, the key here is lawful order. And actually, it's in an article, quote, Pentagon officials are holding informal discussions about how the Department of Defense would respond if Donald Trump issues orders to deploy active duty troops domestically, which raises significant questions of the legality of that, and fire large swaths of apolitical staffers. The situation here, and it's still very realistic, is whether the president will asked the military to follow unlawful orders. You have someone who's just said recently he may or may not use the due process, which is a constitutional right for every person in the United States. So if we're not having a serious discussion about whether officers will follow unlawful orders, I think we're failing ourselves. Let me quickly change the subject in that you are responsible for the Department of Defense Education Activity. They have announced banning books throughout the DoD education system, including To Kill a Mockingbird. Would you urge that To Kill a Mockingbird be prevented from being used in a school?
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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John (Jack) F. Reed
You're probably aware of the fact that when Secretary Hedstedt was in Germany, there was a demonstration on post by parents objecting to these purges of books. In fact, I was astounded because that's the first. I would never conceive of a defense secretary being protested at all on a military post. But the other thing, too, is I think which is involved in this issue of To Kill a Mockingbird is The only conceivable reason that I could think anyone's success should be taken off the shelves is that it does reveal aspects of racial discrimination in the United States, and this whole effort to erase our history is very disconcerting. And I would hope, as you suggest, that you would go back and look very carefully at these banned books and banned programs and banned everything else, because erasing history is not going to be a strength for our military services. Ms. Sutton, I have questions in writing for you. Thank you.
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Roger F. Wicker
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Tom Cotton
You mentioned that the recruiting and retention crisis has improved somewhat over the first 100 days of the Trump administration. And that's a great credit to the president, to the secretary of defense. It's still not quite where we need it to get, though, after years of decline under President Biden. One thing that I think has been a challenge is that we're not fishing in a big enough pond. Um, the military often sites that the standards that exclude Many, maybe most young Americans from service like academic standards, health conditions and other requirements. Um, obviously some of those are serious. We can have people with serious psychiatric illnesses or academic deficiencies in the military. But I do think we've gotten a little bit too strict on these things, especially in certain anecdotes I've come across or members of this committee have as well. You know, a young man who was prescribed antidepressants when he was in his early teens because his parents were going through a divorce and hasn't been on them for six or seven years, or someone who maybe injured a hip or a knee playing junior high sports and six years later is disqualified from the military because of that, after which they continued to play sports at the high school level as well. Do you agree that we should try to find ways to expand the eligibility pool so our recruiters can be fishing in a bigger pond?
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Tom Cotton
Thank you for that. Um One challenge here is the Genesis program, which I know is done a lot to help our military get a better picture and catch. Um, all of the records that recruits have But also, I do think by exposing some of these things that are fairly trivial or very old and haven't led young men and women from leading a full and complete life that take them to service is that it makes it harder for them to get in. And the waiver waiver process is very complicated. Do you think we need to take a look at pushing that waiver authority down, pushing it down into the chain of command and recruiting battalions to make it easier for people with these conditions that clearly don't impair their military service to get promptly on boarded into the, um, uh Recruiting process and then ultimately into basic training. So they're not sitting on the sidelines for 60 90 120 days and finding other jobs elsewhere.
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Tom Cotton
And then finally, some of my Old friends who have served in recruiting battalion headquarters speak of the doctors at the maps around the country as seemingly being paid on commission by how many recruits they can disqualify from serving. Do you think we should take a look at the incentives that the doctors have at our map stations and also whether we have the right number of providers at all those stations to move all those recruits along so when a young man or woman expresses interest in serving, we're getting them promptly through the process and hopefully getting them to their ship date.
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Tom Cotton
Thank you. Ms. Sutton. 30 years ago, at the dawn of the internet, there was lots of rosy, optimistic thinking about how it was going to revolutionize the way human beings live, and we're going to connect the world, and there were going to be no borders or boundaries, and it was going to help us bridge our differences. And 30 years later, it certainly has done a lot to improve the way we live. It's kept families connected across long distances, helped people reconnect with classmates, and get telehealth that otherwise might not have been able to. But there's also a lot of things like sexual exploitation and money laundering and fraud on the Internet as well. So is it safe to say? 30 years on that human nature is the same wherever we find it and the greatness and the frailties in the real world, human virtue and vice in the real world we see reflected in the cyber world as well.
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
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Tom Cotton
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
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Tom Cotton
And do you think we've done enough over the last four years to deter our adversaries like China? and Russia and Iran and North Korea by being essentially in a defensive crouch in the cyber world and not developing offensive plans and capabilities that can hold at risk the things that they hold most dear.
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
Senator, when I led a red team at Sandia, we had a common phrase that said the defender has to be wrong every time. The adversary only has to be be right once. Um, I think that goes to show that while we need strong defenses, we are not going to deter the adversary with defenses only and that if confirmed, I will work to strengthen our offensive cyber capabilities to ensure the president has the options he needs to respond to this growing threat.
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Tom Cotton
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Roger F. Wicker
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Jeanne Shaheen
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Tata, I appreciate the service that you and your family have provided to this country. I think you are rightly proud of that. I'm proud of the service that I and my family, my father, my husband, my son-in-law have provided to the country, the service that we provided to our communities. But while I appreciate your service, I don't appreciate your partisan tweets, your partisan statements on Fox News and other outlets. I don't think that's helpful to heal the divide in this country. I don't appreciate that because I'm a Democrat, you say that I would support Hamas or Hezbollah or Iran. I've spent my whole career in the Senate doing everything I can to fight Hezbollah and Hamas and Iran. And while we may disagree on how best to do that, I don't think we should question people's motives who are trying to serve this country. So I hope that Senator Tillis is correct, that you've learned from those past statements and how inappropriate and divisive they are, and that you're gonna take a different approach if you're confirmed for this position.
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Senator, those were out of character comments. I regret making those comments. Five years ago, I submitted an apology letter to this committee about those comments. I have 45 years of solutions-oriented leadership. That was out of character. I regret it, and I can guarantee you that I will be, if confirmed, a political leader that is trying to take care of the men and women in uniform and their families and the DOD civilians. Thank you.
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Jeanne Shaheen
In February, Secretary Hegseth announced a reduction in force at DOD to cut up to 75,000 workers. And on March 18th, the acting Undersecretary of Defense for PNR issued guidance directing that, and I quote, positions at depots, shipyards, arsenals, and maintenance facilities would be exempt from the current civilian hiring freeze. I visited the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard along with Senator King last month and with the new Secretary of the Navy. And we were informed that nearly 150 personnel have received initial job offers from the shipyard, but they haven't been able to begin their hirings because they've not been fully processed. So that means we have critical roles that are open. One of the suggestions for the delay was because of the work of OPM. the Office of Personnel Management. So if confirmed, you will oversee civilian hiring for DoD. How will you work with your counterparts and other agencies to eliminate those kinds of bureaucratic holdups? How do we move those hires that are in the pipeline?
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Senator, I share your concern, particularly when this body and the president have all said they want to build more ships. If we have welders, for example, off ramping through the deferred resignation program, we've got a hiring freeze. We've got other cuts of probationary personnel. If confirmed, and I get into the position, one of my priorities will be aligning national security and national defense priorities like shipbuilding with personnel policy to see where the gaps are. How can we accelerate, for example, shipbuilding if we don't have welders to weld the ships, to use a very simple example. But I imagine that there's several different examples such as this. And if confirmed, I look forward to immediately figuring out where those gaps are and aligning them with the national security priorities of this body and of the president.
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Jeanne Shaheen
Well, I appreciate that, and I certainly agree that we need to look at all of our policies if we're going to address shipbuilding. Our public shipyards, of course, do maintenance and repair on our ships as opposed to shipbuilding, but it's the same challenge, and I think we need to better align our what we're trying to accomplish with the policies that we put in place. Ms. Sutton, thank you for being here and for your service to this committee. We've seen, as other questioners have said, an increase in cyber attacks over the last few years. They've affected our infrastructure. Do you think it's important to maintain our forward posture in offensive cyber operations against Russia and that that among our other adversaries, that that's important to our national defense.
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
Senator, I couldn't agree with you more. One of the unique challenges in the cyber domain is the threats that we face every day, and it's not just from a single adversary. It ranges from highly capable nation states like China, Russia, and Iran, down to criminals engaging in ransomware for financial motives. And to be successful, we're going to have to counter all of those and keep our focus on all of the threats that we face. Thank you.
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Roger F. Wicker
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Mike Rounds
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, to both of you, thank you for your continued service to our country. Ms. Sutton, look at air, land, sea, space, cyberspace. The next real conflicts that we're going to see will probably start with cyberspace activity. If you are confirmed, what will your priorities be as the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy?
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
Senator, thank you for the kind introduction this morning and for your leadership over the years on making sure that the department is appropriately postured for cyber and AI. As you mentioned, the cyber domain is continuing to evolve. And the one constant that I've seen in being involved in this domain for over two decades is that the rate of change is exponential. My top priority of confirmed in this role will be to address this change with speed and agility in the department. As you're well aware, in 2018, there was a series of activities that enabled the offensive posture that the department is undergoing today, both establishment by President Trump of NSPM 13, the process to do cyber operations, as well as this committee's definition of traditional military authorities for cyber. I believe we're at a point where we need to reevaluate those and make sure that we're postured to be able to respond to the increasing speed of cyber attacks and that we are able to address the incoming impacts of AI. To do that, my second and third priorities will be to make sure that we have the talent that we need to understand this dynamic environment and that we have the technologies and we're leveraging them quickly to respond to challenges like AI.
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Mike Rounds
After having worked with you directly for about four years and the amount of knowledge that you have in this, I truly can't think of anyone who is more qualified for the position that you have been nominated for. And I look forward to not only supporting, but helping you to get in and to get to work as soon as possible. Clearly, we need to be moving forward as quickly as possible with regard to our cyber capabilities, both offensively and defensively, and I thank you for stepping forward once again. Thank you. Mr. Tate, Part of the opportunity that we have here is to ask questions regarding items of not only the regular Army, but also the National Guard. And I want to ask you a question about that, but I also, in listening to your comments earlier, I wanted to give you an opportunity to respond. I think the ranking member asked a very specific question regarding whether or not you felt that it would be necessary or would you consider banning to kill a mockingbird? And I know that as we work our way through these processes, sometimes it catches a person off guard. I wanted to give you an opportunity. I think it was a pretty specific question by the ranking member. And I think if you are comfortable with your answer, that's fine. But I think that will become the headline of the day will be that you did not specifically respond to that. I want to give you an opportunity to quell that if you would like.
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Absolutely. I read To Kill a Mockingbird in high school, and I see no issue with To Kill a Mockingbird in schools. I'm not confirmed. I'm not in the position. I didn't make the decision. But certainly... If confirmed, I look forward to reviewing that and making sure that our students have access to a wide variety of materials that inform their learning.
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Mike Rounds
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Senator, I think reserve and National Guard training is paramount. I was Executive Officer, Vice Chief Dick Cody 04-05 when we were deploying National Guard and Reserve to and from Operation Iraqi and Enduring Freedom. We were moving some 350,000 troops either into combat or out of combat or training them. So having trained and ready forces is paramount. Certainly, fully funding that training is part of being ready.
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Mike Rounds
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Roger F. Wicker
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Mazie K. Hirono
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome to both of you and your families. To ensure the fitness to serve us, the following two initial questions of the nominees to any of the committees on which I sit, so I'll ask the two of you. We'll start with Mr. Tata and then go to Ms. Sutton. Since you became a legal adult, have you ever made unwanted requests for sexual favors or committed any verbal or physical harassment or assault of a sexual nature?
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Mazie K. Hirono
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
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Mazie K. Hirono
Mr. Tata, the position you've been nominated for, Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness, is among the most consequential in the DoD, and you would be responsible for setting policies that affect the lives of more than three million uniformed and civilian members of our military community, from recruitment and readiness to healthcare, family support, for structure. And this position requires integrity, sound judgment, and an unwavering commitment to serving all who wear the uniform and those who support them. Your record gives me pause and causes me to question whether you possess the necessary qualities for this role. You have made inflammatory and deeply offensive public statements, calling President Obama a terrorist leader, calling Islam or claiming that Islam is the most oppressive, violent religion and promoting dangerous conspiracy theories. And these weren't slips of the tongue or out of character, as you noted today. They were repeated, deliberate, and public. Moreover, they were coupled with statements that disparaged senior military leaders, suggested a politicized purge of the officer corps, and supported unlawful use of force under a suspended posse comitatus act. You have also been found by the Army Inspector General to have violated the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which raises additional concerns about your adherence to military standards of conduct. And according to multiple reports and letters, including bipartisan opposition from former military leaders, your nomination is widely perceived as being driven by political loyalty rather than professional qualifications.
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Mazie K. Hirono
you would be tasked with leading a diverse workforce, one that includes Muslim service members, women in combat roles, LGBTQ personnel, and senior leaders who you have attacked or proposed be fired. Given this record, I question whether you would be able to lead with impartiality, dignity, and professionalism. I do have some questions for you. The military must remain a nonpartisan institution, guided by constitutional principles and civilian control. You previously endorsed using military forces, as I noted, in a domestic context by suggesting Congress suspend posse comitatus. Under what circumstances do you believe such an action would be justified?
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Senator, I appreciate being able to have this conversation. Specifically, what I was referring to is the border where the military is supporting the border patrol. And whether or not that requires suspension of posse comitatus, I don't know. But the idea that we need better border security is really what I was saying in that remark.
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Mazie K. Hirono
Well, we do have military personnel at the border. In fact, last year, the former National Guard bureau chief testified that the border security mission by the military provides no military training value to guardsmen and does not prepared troops for great power competition. A 2021 GAO report found multiple units lost critical training opportunities due to deployments to the border, impairing operational readiness. Wouldn't you agree, Mr. Tata, that sending thousands of troops to the border, not to perform military functions, they're performing civilian functions that one would hope that Homeland Security would be able to do, but wouldn't you agree that this kind of deployment and use of troops negatively affects our military readiness?
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Eric Stephen Schmitt
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Mazie K. Hirono
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Roger F. Wicker
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Tommy Hawley Tuberville
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for both of you willing to serve. Ms. Sutton. The President released the top line of his FY26 budget last week, and we look forward to learning all the details of the proposal in weeks ahead. We do know that this year's budget request for cyber operations will 14.5 billion, up 1 billion for the previous year. Given the rapid involvement of the landscape in cyber, do you believe this funding level is sufficient to meet our security needs?
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
Senator, I share your concern with making sure we are balancing the resources available with the growing threat as you indicated. One of the primary responsibilities if confirmed in this role is to review the budget and to certify that to ensure it's necessary. Um in One of the things that is particularly unique about the cyber domain is that many of the capabilities are a software capability And so investments in this domain can have a very immediate response Into providing options for the president and secretary and look forward to having the opportunity to highlight Where we can better integrate this and perhaps shore up additional resources as needed What role will cyber play in the future of possibly the golden dome? Senator, in my current role, I have not been involved in the specifics of that discussion, but I think that what we see with all of our weapons systems is the importance of building in cybersecurity from the beginning to make sure that as we put these capabilities out, that we're able to defend them and that they're secure against what will be an attack surface that our adversaries will definitely look to exploit.
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Tommy Hawley Tuberville
Thank you. Mr. Tate, I reviewed your record. public service, combat veterans, school superintendent, secretary of transportation, leading tens of thousands of military members and civil servants conducting complex missions. Anything you hadn't done? My goodness. Senator, I appreciate that comment. Well, thank you for your service. But instead of exploring the experience, my colleagues seem to be focused on some things that you've said in the past. And I find this interesting, given the last four years where a lot of the Democratic Party has continually called conservatives Nazis, fascists, threats to democracy. It goes both ways here. The previous administration fully weaponized their justice system. Punish their political opposition profile. Grandmothers are thrown into prison for peaceful protests. Uh, just goes on and on out of curiosity. Mr Tata. Have you level label people? You disagree with Nazis. Senator, I have not. Thank you. Have you ever weaponized your previous offices to punish your political opponent? Senator, I have not. I didn't think so. Yesterday, Secretary Hayes announced a two-phase approach to reducing our top-level military. Phase one is a 20% reduction of active four-star generals and flag officers, as well as a 20% from the National Guard Bureau of Police. Phase two will be an additional 10%. The Undersecretary for Personnel and Readiness will be leading this initiative. I'm interested in your thoughts on this announcement.
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Senator, any time that we're talking about tooth-to-tail ratio, I think it's a good conversation. The Secretary's comment about the number of generals when we were in World War II versus the number we have today, I think is a stark reminder that perhaps we've become a little bit of a bureaucracy. And so he talked about a methodical and measured way of going about finding the force structure realignment that would allow for the reductions he's talking about.
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Tommy Hawley Tuberville
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Tommy Hawley Tuberville
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Roger F. Wicker
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Angus S. King Jr.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Sutton, you have probably as much knowledge about the cyber landscape as anybody in this country. Give us just a few seconds about how bad is it. I don't think the public realizes the level of cyber threat that we're under right now and the fact that it is happening right now. in institutions across the government, but also in the private sector. I guess my question is, how bad is it?
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
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Angus S. King Jr.
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
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Angus S. King Jr.
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
I couldn't agree with you more. What I would also like to highlight, though, is that as the threat has evolved, so has the department and the federal government and how we respond, both from a posture to be able to impose cost and defend forward, which is where we have grown increasingly capable over the last seven years, as well as working with private industry to take lessons that we've learned from the Department of Defense, where we see malicious activity, where we see malware, to being able to share that with private industry so that it gets put into cybersecurity products that are used across the private industry to really leverage the knowledge that we gain from within the Department of Defense to make sure that we're protecting not only the Department of Defense, but also have that secondary effect across the nation.
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Angus S. King Jr.
When we talk about the Department of Defense, we're also talking about the defense industrial base, which includes thousands of supply chain contractors who are also vulnerable, and it creates a very serious problem in terms of our cyber defenses in a time of conflict. I would submit that the first three hours of a major conflict will be all about cyber. Would you agree?
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
I believe that cyber is going to be fundamental as a domain of warfare in any future conflicts with adversaries. And one of the unique challenges about cyber is that much of this activity happens below the level of armed conflict. So even today, we have our cyber forces engaging with adversaries below the level of armed conflict on a daily basis, but will also play a key role in crisis and conflict going forward.
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Angus S. King Jr.
Chairman Wicker and Senator Cotton all mentioned deterrence, and I believe that's one of the most important factors. As I think Senator Cotton characterized it, we're not going to be able to defend ourselves if we're in a defensive crouch at all times. We need to have both the capability for offensive cyber, but also I believe we need a stated doctrine. Everyone in the world knows our doctrine of deterrence in nuclear armaments, for example. People should also understand a doctrine of deterrence that if you attack us in cyberspace, there will be a response. It may not be cyber. It may be something else. But one of the problems, as I've looked back over the past 25 years, we still haven't responded to the Sony hack. We haven't responded to the to the to vote typhoon. There's there's no price to pay for our adversaries. I hope in your councils within the Defense Department and the administration, you'll argue for a serious and substantial cyber deterrent stated policy. If it's not stated, a deterrent doesn't work.
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
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Angus S. King Jr.
Thank you very much. General Tala, we won't have time for extensive questions. This restructuring of the Pentagon, including an 8% reduction in staff, is something, if that's going to happen, my concern is that it happened in a more thoughtful and systematic way than what happened in some of the other areas before. of our government over the past two or three months. That kind of cut could either be increase efficiency or destroy morale and undercut the mission of the department. So that's going to be a major challenge. I think the major challenge that you face should you be confirmed in this position.
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
A
Angus S. King Jr.
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Ted Budd
Senator Budd. Thank you, Chairman, and congrats to both of you all for your nomination and your willingness to serve. Ms. Sutton, I enjoyed our conversation in the office last week, and we talked about the importance of attracting and retaining cyber professionals inside the Department of Defense. If confirmed, how will you ensure that our military maintains the most qualified cyber force? Talk about retention a little bit there, if you will.
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
Senator, I also appreciated the opportunity to talk through some of these topics in your office last week. I appreciate you taking the time. My experience across the cyber domain is that while technology is incredibly important, it is not going to be effective without the best and the brightest available to utilize it. And I believe that the department faces two challenges. The first is bringing them in, recruiting them, but as you mentioned, also retaining these talented individuals. And from my experience, some of our most talented operators and analysts at United States Cyber Command stay in the forces, not solely for financial incentives, which is something we certainly need to work through to make sure that we're compensating our workforce for their skill sets, but also giving them the ability to stay on mission, to execute mission, and to defend our nation. That is what brings them into work every day. Many of them think about this 24 hours a day, work on hobbies at home, securing their own networks. And those are the people we really need to focus on bringing in are those with that passion and just want to get on mission to help defending our networks. So if confirmed, I look forward to finding opportunities, whether it be finding training for them or just continuing to keep them doing their jobs. to build and maintain the best cyber force that we can have.
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Ted Budd
Well, if confirmed, I look forward to having those ongoing conversations. You know, we've talked a lot about in this chamber, and I've heard some questions this morning about the growing cyber threat from adversaries like Iran, Russia, North Korea, and especially the PRC. So, Ms. Sutton, how does our military stay ahead? And this may be a bit of a recap, and you may feel like you're answering these ad infinitum this morning, but if you would recap for us a little bit or anything new that you may have just... occurred to you in this discussion about how we stay ahead in both defensive and offensive, and especially the offensive side. I heard my colleague mention that. Offensive cyber operations. How do we stay ahead there?
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
I think there's a couple things that are going to be really important. Again, it goes back to talent, making sure that we have talented young individuals and empowering them to develop solutions against some of these challenging problems. But it's also going to be fundamental that we leverage the strength of the United States, which is our competitiveness and innovation in tools like artificial intelligence. And we make sure that we can bring those tools in and that our operators get a chance to use them. We often hear the term valley of death. I know we talked about that in your office last week. That's something that as a committee member on the staff here, we heard that term on a daily basis. What I think is gonna be important is figuring out how we actually solve that, which I believe is matching up the developers with the actual operators and analysts who will be using the tools to let them try it out before they bring the final product. We've had success in that at Cyber Command through a program called Constellation in partnership with DARPA, and I look forward to using that model, if confirmed, to be able to bring innovations from across industry and the rest of the innovation ecosystem in.
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Ted Budd
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
I think it's going to be important to ensure that they understand what the true needs are of our war fighters and that we engage them in that process early, but also that we look at addressing some of the policy and the training that is going to be needed to allow our war fighters to adopt this technology correctly. The speed of technology is often outpacing the policies we have in place to utilize that technology. So, for example, in the case of artificial intelligence, we need to make sure we have the right policies for data and that it's responsibly used, but also that we are authorizing its use.
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Ted Budd
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
There is a tremendous opportunity in cyberspace for us to share the burden of defending against what is a common global adversary. And the Department of Defense has many tools that we use, including our Hunt Forward partnerships, where we partner with foreign nations to identify malicious cyber activity on their networks and help them defend that, as well as defend the entire ecosystem. If confirmed, I look forward to making sure that we're continuing those and that they're prioritized to the president and the secretary's priorities going forward.
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Roger F. Wicker
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Tammy Duckworth
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Gary C. Peters
In February, President Trump fired General C.Q. Brown, Jr., the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and replaced several top officers, including the chief of naval operations, the cybercom commander, the NSA director, and the judge advocates generals of the Army, Navy, as well as the Air Force. As a former service member myself.
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Tammy Duckworth
I'm deeply concerned about the impact of purging high level officers for basically simply following policies and legal orders that were put into place by Prior department leadership, regardless of which party is in power. Since the founding of our country, one of the bedrock principles has been the apolitical Department of Defense, as you well know. I fear, though, that these actions set a dangerous precedent and creates an environment where military leaders may be afraid of dismissal for doing their duty and following legal orders.
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Senator, I wasn't there. I wasn't involved in any of those. If confirmed, what I can guarantee to this committee is that I will advise the chain of command, the secretary, the president on the hiring of personnel and the support of personnel that are in these leadership positions in a very apolitical and objective way.
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Tammy Duckworth
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Gary C. Peters
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Gary C. Peters
The Undersecretary of Defense for Personnel Readiness oversees, as you know, policies that shape every aspect of the service member's experience. Unfortunately, though, many of these basic services impacting our troops are either substandard or under threat of getting worse, including things like health care, housing, child care for service members.
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Tammy Duckworth
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Gary C. Peters
you will be responsible not only for ensuring military personnel are supported on and off duty, but also protecting these vital benefits for their families each and every day. So my question for you is, if confirmed, how will you combat these ongoing challenges and advocate for the well-being of service members and DoD civilians as well?
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Senator, I think this is where my experience as a combat leader, as a DOD leader, even as a school system leader with aging facilities really comes to play. If confirmed, taking a look at the childcare centers, the demand, what we're paying our childcare providers. the defense commissary system, the post exchange system, all those things that provide benefits to our families and our soldiers are so critically important because a focused soldier is one that doesn't have to worry about his child and their childcare center, doesn't have to worry about his or her spouse and their job. You're talking about job portability and licensure between states. All of those things become critical And given my background and experience, I look forward to, if confirmed, being able to energize these programs and take care of our soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines, and guardians, and DOD civilians so that they can be more lethal at the cutting edge of our fight.
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Senator, I think the accountability measures that we require are the feedback that we get from the families. As a school superintendent, I learned that there's no better feedback mechanism than a mom at a microphone and going out and understanding what the service is like and making sure that we are paying our childcare providers, for example, uh, sufficient wages to provide the kind of care our servicemen and women and their families deserve.
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Gary C. Peters
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Roger F. Wicker
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Rick Scott
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, first off, both of you, congratulations on your nominations, and I wish you the best of luck. Um, you both have great backgrounds, and I know you both do a great job. So, Mr. Tate, you've got great background, and thank you for your military service. My dad was in the ASIC and airborne. He was one of 3,000 Americans in all four combat jumps. So he told me I should join the Navy instead. So he said there's no Germans, no foxholes, and the food was better.
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Markwayne Mullin
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Markwayne Mullin
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Markwayne Mullin
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Well, Senator, the chiefs of those services are responsible for infusing the warrior ethos all the way down and having the recruiting systems in place. The Marine Corps does it in an exceptional way because they actually have a recruiting MOS and a recruiting system where they uphold the recruits I can remember as superintendent, I had Marine recruits all over my high schools.
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Markwayne Mullin
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Markwayne Mullin
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Markwayne Mullin
In the same subcommittee hearing, the chief of Navy personnel testified the Navy is short 20,000 sailors at sea. So this is a pretty big problem because we are not manned our ships at 100%. Ship submarines and aircraft squadrons are at the forefront of our Navy readiness, and they should be manned at 100%. So can you give me an idea how we're going to get to 100% readiness and get these ships manned and submarines manned?
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Senator, the manning of the submarine fleet, the ship fleet, how we're going to do that, short 20,000 sailors, that's a tall order. And I understand that there was a throughput issue getting them to basic training. And if confirmed, I look forward to working with the service to try to help them understand how to, A, recruit better, and B, expand the aperture so they can scale to meet the demand, particularly if we're going to build more ships.
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Markwayne Mullin
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Markwayne Mullin
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Markwayne Mullin
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Roger F. Wicker
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Elizabeth Warren
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Our military is strong because each member pledges loyalty to the Constitution, not to a specific president or a political party. And in return, military service and promotion are not tied to a political party or personal loyalty. President Trump threatens that political neutrality with no explanation. He has fired the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the chief of naval operations. Secretary Hegseth has purged top military lawyers and called for removing quote woke generals. Former defense secretaries have called this a quote New political standard for military service. So, Mr Tata, if confirmed, you would be the defense secretary's principal advisor on personnel matters. You've already made your views clear on November 2024. You posted on X that a quote must do, close quote, for the Trump administration will be to, quote, review every four star appointed by Biden and thank many for their service before firing them. Mr. Tatum, what evaluations did you do for each of the dozens of four star generals and admirals to convince you that each of them needed to be fired?
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Senator, that comment was in response to a CNN article that had credible sources that several admirals and generals were having discussions on how to resist lawful orders from the president, usurping his Article II constitutional authority as commander-in-chief, which I find unacceptable. I think we can all agree that the Constitution of the United States that we swear an oath of office to, that I have done for many times in my career, is the ultimate, penultimate document that we support and that we swear an allegiance to.
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Elizabeth Warren
And so if there were people that were having those conversations, if there were admirals and generals that were having those conversations... Mr. Tata, I have your tweet here, and your tweet doesn't say, I want to investigate person by person and see what they've done. I also want to make clear that when generals are having conversations about what to do if they receive illegal orders so that they can still follow their obligations under the Constitution of the United States, then they are following the law. They are not breaking the law. But let's go on to what else you can say.
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Elizabeth Warren
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Elizabeth Warren
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Roger F. Wicker
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Elizabeth Warren
Let me try another one. On November 2024, you posted on X that the Trump administration should choose only leaders who are, quote, all oars in the water to achieve Trump Agenda 47. That suggests that you believe that generals should be picked for loyalty to Donald Trump. Is that right? Is that what you believe?
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Elizabeth Warren
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Elizabeth Warren
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Roger F. Wicker
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Senator, I'm respectfully trying to answer your question. Agenda 47 talks about shipbuilding. It talks about reducing the wars that we engage in. As a leader, I support the idea. I support the president's vision that he had in Agenda 47, though from a foreign policy perspective, and that's what I was referring to.
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Elizabeth Warren
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Roger F. Wicker
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Elizabeth Warren
In January 2025, just four months ago, Mr. Tata, you posted on X that planning for President Trump's inauguration should, your word, assume that the National Guard and DOD are, quote, compromised at a minimum by hatred of the incoming administration. What information did you have about each member of the Guard and DOD that caused you not only to draw this conclusion, but to put it out there in public?
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Elizabeth Warren
about our guard. You know, competence is based on the experience and performance of a military leader. Evidently, you have no information individually about the generals, the admirals, and the members of our National Guard and DOD who serve this country, and yet you're willing to say that they all need to be fired or treated as traitors. You seem to think that if a general or admiral was promoted, During a democratic administration, that person should be automatically fired. That's just a political purge and a pretty standard move for a dictatorship. I think it disqualifies you for this office.
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Roger F. Wicker
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Mark Kelly
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Tata, thank you for being here and also meeting with me in my office in March. I want to get right to it here in a since deleted tweet published on November 8th, 2024. You tweeted and this is a quote. The Pentagon is hyper politicized and needs a thorough vetting. To include senior active duty military personnel who are participating in these discussions. You went on to tweet loyalty to the Constitution is the only test. And then outlined six must-do actions, including two, this is number five, review every SES appointment and find a path to off-ramping many. They are a large part of the resistance in DOD and will lead The underground efforts to undermine the administration as they did in 2016 to 2020 and then number six. So that was five. This is six appoint strong leaders who are aligned. With POTUS's vision. No independent agendas. All oars in the water to achieve Trump Agenda 47 end of quote. Mr Tada. What did you mean? by the fact that leaders should be, quote, aligned with POTUS's vision to achieve Trump Agenda 47.
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Senator, thank you for the opportunity to have this conversation. The Trump Agenda 47 is one piece through strength, strengthening, rebuilding our military, focusing on not engaging in needless wars, and That tweet was in direct response to a CNN article that discussed credible sources of generals and admirals having conversations about how to resist lawful orders from the commander in chief who's appointed under Article Two of the Constitution as the Commander in Chief. And so I found it quite unacceptable that admirals and generals, as reported by CNN, were having conversations about how to resist our president. and for lawful orders. And in so doing, I was also shocked that General Brown had never acknowledged this report, said it was bogus, or... Who was the report by? CNN. It was an article by CNN that cited credible sources that said... That admirals and generals are having conversations about how to resist lawful orders from the president. Lawful orders they didn't like.
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Mark Kelly
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
We all raise our right hand, Senator, to uphold and defend the Constitution. And it's also very important that we accomplish the President's vision of no unnecessary wars. rebuilding the military, taking care of our men and women in uniform. Those are all the goals that I'm talking about. And I found it reprehensible that admirals and generals in the Pentagon were having conversations about how to usurp the commander in chief's authority that's given to him by our Constitution, Article 2, and disobey lawful orders, how were they going to resist? And that's what I found offensive, Senator.
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Mark Kelly
Well, I think it's interesting that folks who often don't give a lot of credence to what comes from CNN are now quoting CNN as a reliable source when it is convenient in a political argument. I think you're saying that loyalty to the Constitution comes above loyalty to any individual, including the President. Is that correct?
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Mark Kelly
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Roger F. Wicker
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John (Jack) F. Reed
Mr. Chairman, the General has been making references to a CNN article, which I think he did not fully read. The opening sentence is, Pentagon officials are holding informal discussions about how the Department of Defense would respond if Donald Trump issued orders to deploy active duty troops domestically and fire a large swath of apolitical staffers, defense officials told CNN. First, the deployment domestically of United States military forces raises the issue of capaci comitatus and the legality of the law. Further, and another quote, Trump's election has also raised questions inside the Pentagon about what would happen if the president issued an unlawful order, particularly if his political appointees inside the department didn't push back. Troops, quote, troops are compelled by law to disobey unlawful orders, said another defense official. But the question is, what happens then? Do we see resignations from senior military leaders? Or would they view this as abandoning their people? So contrary to being a article directed at thwarting the president, this was an article realistically Raising questions which are still present here today. What if the president who has said due process is not really something he has to enforce in the Constitution? What about a president who's talking about his third term? Will he use the military forces to help secure his third term? What the comment about thwarting came from a commentator, a Republican commentator, Mr. Jennings, with Wolf Blitzer. What he said is, he said, they're already having discussions about how to countermand the commander in chief. That does not comport to this article that you refer to. And then they're having meetings with each other about the thwart, the duly elected president.
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John (Jack) F. Reed
That's not the CNN article. That's a Republican content on CNN. Here's what Blitzer did in follow up. But let me follow up, Scott. Let me follow up you because Trump as president will be the commander chief. But what these president officials, Pentagon officials are considering right now in discussing among themselves, what if he gives the Pentagon, the US military, illegal orders to do certain things? What do they do then? That's the essence of the article, General Tater. I would request your unanimous consent to submit the article, the record, and also the commentary on the Blitzer.
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Roger F. Wicker
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John (Jack) F. Reed
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Roger F. Wicker
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Chairman, I would. Thank you for that opportunity. Just for the avoidance of doubt, I want to make it clear that my commentary is precisely focused on loyalty to the Constitution and the oath that we take. And admirals and generals in the Pentagon should not, as was indicated in this article, be having conversations about how to resist the commander-in-chief providing lawful orders. And controversial orders may be lawful. And so I want to be crystal clear, chairman and ranking member, that I've upheld the Constitution in every job that I've had. And I take it very seriously that Article II appoints the Commander-in-Chief, the President as Commander-in-Chief. And no uniformed officer has the right to supersede the Commander-in-Chief's authority of a lawful order. And that is the point that I am trying to get across.
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John (Jack) F. Reed
Well, I think you're missing the point, because the point is illegal orders, and that's exactly what the CNN report was talking about. And you say here, I will follow every legal order, but never an illegal order. If you are ordered... or the Department of Secretary of Defense's order to use military forces to go into the city of the United States to pick up illegals or legal citizens, would you have a discussion whether or not this is appropriate under the Constitution of the United States?
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Senator, if confirmed, I'd be the personnel readiness undersecretary, and I wouldn't have any role in that function. The conversation around the use of the Insurrection Act, individuals have been deployed throughout history by President H.W. Bush, by President Johnson, to help preserve peace and integrate schools, for example. Of course, there would be conversations, Ranking Member, exactly the conversations that you are criticizing. Thank you.
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Roger F. Wicker
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Jacky Rosen
Well, thank you, Chairman Wicker, Ranking Member Reed, for holding this hearing. Thank you to the witnesses for your willingness to serve your families I know are here today. I'm going to switch up a little bit. We'll give you a little bit of a break, Mr. Tata, because I want to focus on cyber intel capability. with Ms. Sutton. And so the FY25 NDAA included a provision I helped champion to have the department establish a cyber intelligence capability to provide foundational scientific and technical intelligence support for cyber comm and the rest of the joint force. So Ms. Sutton, can you discuss how, if confirmed, you will address that requirement? And what is your understanding of the department's current approach to standing this up, including the lessons learned from the recently completed cyber intelligence pilot with the Defense Intelligence Agency?
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
Senator, I appreciate the question and also appreciate the attention that you've put on this issue. In all domains of warfare, intelligence is critical to being able to conduct our operations. But it is particularly critical in the cyber domain for a range of applications to develop capabilities, to build the accesses that we needed, to execute the operations, and to understand situational awareness of the battle space. As the demand signal for our cyber operations has grown considerably in response to the threat of malicious cyber actors, so has that need for intelligence. And unfortunately, we have not kept pace in the workforce needed to be able to support the growing intelligence need. As you mentioned, it is my understanding that there's been a recent pilot that has been completed with the command and the intelligence community. And if confirmed, I look forward to understanding the specific gaps that they were identified, as well as ensuring that we have the right organizational structure in place to be able to move out on those recommendations, and also to make sure that we can bring in the highly technical and deeply skilled talent that you're aware is necessary to be successful in this Right.
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Jacky Rosen
Well, as a cyber threat evolves, that means the evolution of our cyber forces as well. So that brings me to my next question about cyber workforce will actually recruit and retention. But the DOD continues to struggle with recruiting and retaining cyber talent, particularly against this really highly competitive private sector. The issue undermines our readiness across all of our domains, and it is really a priority of mine to fix this issue as ranking member of the Cybersecurity Subcommittee. So if confirmed, what specific actions would you take to attract and retain the skilled cyber professionals, especially when you're competing with the private sector, and what barriers, cultural, structural, policy-based, do you believe you're preventing DOD from doing this? How can we work together to help you in this capacity.
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
I share your concern about the importance of making sure that we have the best and brightest on our team. That is the only way we're going to be successful against the adversary. I believe that this is going to be a variety of approaches. There's not going to be one simple step we can take in the department. We're going to have to look at making sure we're bringing in the right talent, that we're incentivizing it appropriately, and that we're keeping it on mission. One key area that I think we have underutilized in the past is looking at how we leverage our Reserve and National Guard and bring in the talent that they have in private industry and apply it to our mission space. I've seen many examples in my time at the command where we will bring in an Air Force reservist who has an advanced degree in data science, works in private industry, and they come in and advise on our AI strategy and our AI roadmap. or where we have an Army reservist who spent almost a decade as one of our most capable operators in the force, became a reservist, is now in private industry, and has been fundamental in advising our new force generation model. I think that that is a pillar that if confirmed, I look forward to being able to support further.
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Jacky Rosen
Well, that's why we have the pilot program on my civilian cybersecurity reserve to to really give us this capacity. I look forward to working with you on that. And I know you're thinking about the partnerships. We have issues like rotational programs with the private sector, pay flexibility. expedited clearing process, some of those things to improve workforce readiness. But we also have academia. Like my home state of Nevada, we have UNLV, UNR, and Desert Research Institute. They're exploring innovative ways to grow our cyber talent locally. So how will you partner with our universities, if you will?
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
Absolutely. We need to look across the nation's talent for how we can leverage it. If confirmed, I would look to further leverage the Cyber Center of Excellence program that today has been very focused on bringing a talented pipeline of students into government, and particularly the Department of Defense, but looking at how we could further leverage that to help us solve some of the hardest problems that our force faces.
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Roger F. Wicker
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Timothy (Tim) Kaine
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Dan Sullivan
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Timothy (Tim) Kaine
Sutton, in your testimony in response, I think to a question of Senator Buds, you talked a little bit about our allies and partners and how cybersecurity is something where there should be burden sharing, and there should be, but there's also real opportunities and work with allies and partners, not just to share the burden, but to take advantage of the expertise of of other nations. I've been particularly involved in this committee and in the Foreign Relations Committee on the AUKUS framework. Could you talk a little bit about your view about the upsides, not just in the sense of sharing the burden, but the capacities of some of our allies and how sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
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Dan Sullivan
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
Senator, I appreciate that question. The United States has a strong innovative advantage with the talent that we have, but we certainly do not have a monopoly on that talent. And I think partnerships with some of our close partners and allies, particularly the Australians through the AUKUS Pillar 2, which allows us to do cooperative research and development agreements, is going to be really important so that we can ensure that we're able to share the latest and greatest technology, but also that we're able to prioritize our investments, that we're not duplicating efforts. And so working closely with all of our partners, but in particularly utilizing the AUKUS agreement, will be critical in bringing the technology we need to our warfighters.
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Timothy (Tim) Kaine
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Timothy (Tim) Kaine
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Timothy (Tim) Kaine
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Dan Sullivan
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Timothy (Tim) Kaine
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Dan Sullivan
And that is the offensive nature of our cyber capacity. You used the phrase, we have the capacity to impose costs. Um, but I often wonder if we are imposing costs. Your point that the defender has to be right every time the attacker only has to be right once. We do have a good defense cyber defense. We're not perfect.
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Timothy (Tim) Kaine
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Dan Sullivan
There's a story about some cyber hacker getting into some part of the US government or some critical infrastructure in the United States and and those stories are very public and the public hears them and the public's worried about cyber. We talk about offensive operations in other military domains.
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Timothy (Tim) Kaine
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Timothy (Tim) Kaine
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Dan Sullivan
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Timothy (Tim) Kaine
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Dan Sullivan
But the public never hears about our use of the offensive cyber capacity to impose costs on those who are attacking us. Why can't we be a little more candid with the American public about our offensive use of cyber so that they're aware that we're not just playing defense all the time, but that we actually have an offensive capacity that we use.
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
Senator, that's a great question. I appreciate the opportunity to address it today. As you mentioned, we have decades of experience talking about things like nuclear deterrence. And in the area of cyber, we are still going down that path of evolution. And I think there's a lot of work still to be done. A decade ago, we barely even mentioned the word offensive cyber. Today, many discussions, as you mentioned, in this area are to start having. the right discussions to ensure that we're understanding and that we set the right posture and look forward to being able to continue that dialogue. I think there's a bit of a culture change. Just as we've seen a culture change when we used to see threats in the cyberspace, we just kept them. Through establishment of things like the NSA Cyber Collaboration Center, we now work very hard to take what we see in the cyber domain and share it with industries so that they can defend. I think that same culture change needs to happen in how we discuss cyber deterrence. I look forward to working with you on this.
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Timothy (Tim) Kaine
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Dan Sullivan
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Timothy (Tim) Kaine
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Roger F. Wicker
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Eric Stephen Schmitt
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And Ms. Sutton, I want to follow up on that. And I don't know, because we go in and out of these things, I don't know if you've been asked that, something like that, a bunch of times today or not, but that was the focus of my I think there's been a lot of maybe I don't know what the right word is frustration. Um But that we have to I think we have to start talking about this and acting in a way that it deters our enemies on the cyber front. And I'm talking specifically about China. I think they've gotten so emboldened and so brazen. You just look at the most most recent examples of that, whether it's it's hacking into, you know, phone calls of government officials or just so there's a lot of things that they're doing that I think it's important for us to expose. It's also for our allies to understand that they're a nefarious actor. Willing to do this and so if you sign up for the one belt one road initiative Not only can they turn the lights on and turn the lights off They can make Airlines come or stop if you're critical of the CCP But just the the stuff that people don't see on the cyber front. I think that's just their it's it's tools that they're willing to use and I guess this is more of a monologue than it is a question, but I just think that we have to because you know, we're We admit these things, and we bring them out in the open when they happen. I think for them, they don't want to admit any vulnerabilities. And so I just hope that in your role, taking probably you've heard on a bipartisan basis here, we need to be more aggressive offensively. Because if they don't feel the pain, they're just going to keep doing it. And I think they've gotten more emboldened to do it. I don't think that a lot of Americans understand probably how vulnerable our critical infrastructure is to what the Chinese are already probably embedded in what they're willing to do. It certainly would reach a critical mass if they moved on Taiwan. I think that that's sort of probably where they go first.
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Eric Stephen Schmitt
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
Senator, I share your concerns with the aggression that we're seeing from Chinese malicious cyber activity. I think there's a couple of priorities I'd have in addressing this issue. The first, as you mentioned, is the importance of calling it out. And that's something that the United States can't do alone. It's going to be important for all of our close partners and allies to share the burden in this space. And when we see activity that is unacceptable and what violates the norms of cyberspace, that we all Call that out and call out China's targeting of our infrastructure that threatens our American interests. I also believe it's important that we make sure that the Department of Defense has a robust, effective second to none capability in both offensive and defensive capabilities, and that those options are presented to the president and the secretary so that they have a range of tools available to respond and to deter this activity. And then the third priority I'd have is to consider that cyber is but one tool in our toolbox. And how can we, as a department, be best postured to support other levers of national power, whether it be economic or diplomatic sanctions, to be able to impose further costs based on what we see in cyberspace?
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Eric Stephen Schmitt
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
Senator, one of the most effective recruiting tools we have in the Department of Defense is our mission and the ability to be able to bring the best and brightest from our country and let them Work on hard problems and defend the country every day. If confirmed, one of my priorities will be to make sure that we keep them on mission and keep them focused on doing the work that is what brings them here while making sure we have the right compensation in place to make sure they're incentivized for that work.
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Eric Stephen Schmitt
Thanks. And with the limited time I have, I just, General and the Senator to my right also has focused on a lot of this too. In the first two years, the The criticism I had of the previous administration was just this obsession with DEI and this obsession with this cultural Marxism that really, I think, hurt recruiting. It hurt morale. It's discriminatory. And I know that this administration and the Secretary of Defense have made it a point to root that out. But I will say that even in the preparation for those hearings, as we were trying to find examples, of this ideology, you could tell it started to go underground a little bit more. That the previous administration didn't want to talk about it as much openly, but there would still be slide decks that you might find that had just so crazy stuff in it. So I just would ask for your commitment. It just has no place in our military, and I think that the American people have come around to this thing, too. I'm glad the administration has made it a focus, and it'll be part of your role, too, I think, and just knowing that you're on board with making sure that this isn't going to be part of what we do anymore will be good.
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Roger F. Wicker
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Tammy Duckworth
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, one thing that has no place in our military is the promotion of people and the firing of people based on perceived political loyalty. And I know we've talked about this at length already during this hearing, but in light of the Secretary of Defense statement yesterday where he plans on firing 20% of the general officer, the flag officer ranks, and since you're going to be, if confirmed, in the role to advise on this, I think it's important that we revisit this. In fact, the Trump administration has shown a troubling pattern of not only suddenly purging highly qualified general officers, but also of advancing other officers based solely on perceived political loyalty, despite those officers lacking the qualifications for the jobs to which they're being promoted. Choosing military leadership based on partisan criteria is un-American, and it puts our military readiness and public trust at risk. It is an affront to the great meritocracy that our military has represented until this administration. Mr. Tata, if confirmed, you would carry the solemn responsibility of safeguarding the readiness, talent, and professionalism of our men and women in uniform, including the very important role of overseeing the conditions and standards under which service members can advance in their careers. But I have concerns that you support the removal of senior military leaders that you consider to be woke or politically misguided, officers who, by all accounts, were carrying out lawful orders and policies of a past administration. Would you have supported firing General Timothy Hoff, cyber comm commander and NSA director, who had over 33 years of experience in the Air Force?
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Tammy Duckworth
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Tammy Duckworth
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Tammy Duckworth
Okay. You just under oath confirmed that you support the Trump administration's reckless purchase. I mean, you're saying you have no comments, but these are two examples of the Trump administration's disturbing pattern of suddenly firing expert warriors at the top of their game. disrupting our national security for political gain. Trump has not justified these sudden vacancies in mission-critical roles. Were they fired simply because they followed their oath and executed a previous civilian leader's policy? Do I have your commitment that you will not support firing general officers simply for executing lawful policies of a past administration? That should be an easy one, yes or no?
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Tammy Duckworth
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Tammy Duckworth
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Tammy Duckworth
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Senator, I would see no reason to have any of that play into the promotion. The system that the Secretary is attempting to implement is one based on meritocracy and high standards. And if confirmed, I look forward to working with this body and the Secretary on ensuring that we have the most capable leaders that our young men and women deserve.
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Tammy Duckworth
I hope you live up to that because practices like firing officers for following lawful orders put members in an impossible position, fearful that they'll be punished whether they do or do not fulfill their professional obligations. And more importantly, politicizing promotions and firings have a corrosive effect on our military and on our ability to deter and prepare for conflict. So I hope that you will live by that statement.
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Roger F. Wicker
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Jim Banks
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to both of you for being here. Congratulations on your nomination to play very important roles at the Pentagon. General Tata, last year Congress passed several reforms in the NDAA to roll back DEI. And instead of the Pentagon doing that, bureaucrats in the department simply rebranded it. They called it something different. And then they used contractors to implement DEI training when we eliminated full-time employees in language that we fought for in the NDAA and the House and the Senate to eliminate that. Can you talk about, if you're confirmed, how will you all together eliminate it and fulfill the executive order by President Trump and Secretary Hegseth to do that?
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Senator, thank you for the opportunity to have this conversation. Very important that we focus on those things that unify us as a people, as a force. Our young men and women that join are just cut from the cloth of our society. The job of basic training, the job of the unit leaders from platoon leader up to a core commander are to unify those people in a common purpose and a common focus. And there is no room for anything that divides us as a people. So if confirmed in this position, I will help implement the laws, and I will follow the laws to make sure that we are focused on lethality, meritocracy, and war fighting so that we can have the most unified force that can go out and close with and destroy our enemies.
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Jim Banks
Really important. I totally agree with you. As I said, the bureaucrats at the Pentagon, because so much of this stuff is deeply embedded in different programs and in different ways, and Instead of following the intent of the NDAA, they just reinvented it, called it something different. So have you thought about what else Congress can do to support you in that, to completely wipe it out?
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Senator, if confirmed, I look forward to working with this committee and the full Congress on how to create the most lethal fighting force that we can, and that's by focusing on those things that unify us. If confirmed, I will go out into the field and I will bring back reports. I will report out. I committed to reporting out to this committee if confirmed and being able to tell you what I am seeing. I am a lead from the front type of leader. That's been my ethos since I put on my second lieutenant bar.
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Jim Banks
Well, let us know how we can help you and support you in that. In January, the president also issued another executive order that I think is really important. And he told the DOD to review, quote, all available mechanisms under which military connected families could use DOD funds to attend schools of their choice. including private, faith-based, or public charter schools. We know that the single biggest reason that our military personnel leave the military is because of their kids' education and the schools that their kids go to. So this is a national security issue related to retention. You're a former school superintendent yourself. Do you think that service member parents should have all of the educational choices for their children that civilian parents already have? And by the way, State Department families have school choice when they go abroad. They have choices on where to send their kids to schools that best fit their needs. Why can't the military do it, too?
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Senator, thank you. The parents in the military should have the option to send their children where they want to send their children to get the best education for their children. The quadrennial review that just came out determined that joint earners make joint decisions and they're making joint decisions as you alluded to about their children and where they can best raise their children in the best school system or school environment and as a former superintendent to compete with the charter schools. I created boutique charter schools within my system, which have done very well in Raleigh, North Carolina, two of the best performing system schools in the state today, or two of the leadership academies for young men and women that we created in Raleigh. So I think that providing all these options to parents is critical.
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Jim Banks
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
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Roger F. Wicker
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Elissa Slotkin
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Jeanne Shaheen
A couple of questions, Mr. Tata, that we talked about when you came and visited my office. You're going to be, if sworn in or if confirmed, sworn into an office where you are in control of the entirety of the data of everyone in uniform in the whole massive Department of Defense enterprise. Um, that is a huge responsibility separate from our policy differences. You control the data of every serviceman, sailor, marine, and what happens with that data. Secretary Hegseth has said he welcomes Doge into the Pentagon red carpet for them. Most recently, we heard from the media about a case of Doge going into the NLRB. and getting access to all the data of the individuals there. Within moments of them getting that access, they were targeted by a Russian IP address to try and take some of that data. There is some people who think that literally the bad guys are following around the Doge guys to say, oh, this is great. This is where we can get a bunch of data. Not only is it sensitive information, it's national security-worthy information. Our bases, our sensitive sites, our locations, the vulnerabilities in the force, deployment schedules, everything. Assuming that the secretary continues to allow Doge in, it will be you in that seat who decides to give over millions of pieces of information or not. So will you provide the people of Doge access to the complete file of our uniformed military personnel records?
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Senator, thank you for meeting with me in your office, and you bring up a critical point, not only all the personnel records, but all the military health records as well. It's a massive amount of data, and what I committed to you in your office, and I'll commit to you publicly today, is that before Doge, if I'm confirmed, before Doge is able to access anything with regard to personnel and and personal protected information, there will be some kind of contract that prevents them from doing certain things. I'm not in there yet. I haven't worked with DOGE. I don't know DOGE. But what I do know is men and women in the military and their families deserve to have their privacy protected. And I will commit to them and I will commit to you to doing everything possible to get between anyone that wants to get their data and use it for any other reason.
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Mr. Anthony J. Tata Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness
Senator, the point you make is so important and so paramount. that it can't be overstated. The military health data, the military personnel data, all the records are so critical that we have to have some kind of guardrail in place that helps us prevent improper access to personnel data. And if confirmed, I can commit that I will do my very best to put guardrails in place. And by the way, I don't suspect that Doge would try to do anything improper with this information, but sometimes accidents happen, and so we would need some kind of guardrail in place to be able to protect military members' personal data and their medical data.
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Jeanne Shaheen
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
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Jeanne Shaheen
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
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Jeanne Shaheen
I'm not discussing anything. I'm just asking you to restate the policy for the job you are hoping to get. Is signal or telemessage allowed for a rank and file soldier use signal to communicate not classified but operational details to another soldier? Would that person be using a permissible message?
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Ms. Katherine E. Sutton Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy
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Jeanne Shaheen
Okay. I'm glad you've got your talking point message. I think you and I both know that if the average person, I was a young CIA officer, if I ever put operational details on signal, telemessage, text, anything that would endanger the lives of people on the ground, that would communicate the time and method and hour and technique that we were going to use in an operation, I'd be removed from my job immediately, put on administrative leave. If I put people in danger, I'd be referred to the Department of Justice for a criminal investigation. So, for you to be here, I understand you've gotten very reasonable questions today, but we just got to call balls and strikes. If the average soldier wouldn't be allowed to use those systems, the Secretary of Defense and everyone else around him shouldn't be using it. That should be an easy thing to take accountability for. And it's concerning to me that in going into this job, you can't just give a straight balls and strike answer. I yield back.
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Roger F. Wicker